I refuse to entertain this inclusionist/exclusionist language. You’re either a cishet apologist or you aren’t. THAT is what we are discussing: if you are a cishet apologist.
The REAL “”“debate”“” here is entirely about LGBT people being harassed into allowing straight people into their spaces and communities. What is happening is people making convoluted excuses to diminish their privileges without any repercussions. The arguments basically boil down to: “A cis straight person can be LGBT IF they don’t want to have sex.” Or “A cis straight person can be LGBT IF they have sex but don’t fall in love.”
Similarly they argue: “if a cis person is attracted to no one, and never experiences the kind of attraction that would make them a direct target of homophobia, I think they can still be LGBT.”
And guess what? All of those arguments are garbage, 2/3 of them are explicitly cishet apologia and the other third is just continued argument to have people not facing transphobia or homophobia dare to call themselves LGBT.
This isn’t about inclusion vs exclusion this is about making excuses for the oppressors of LGBT folks continuing to oppress them. This isn’t about inclusion vs exclusion, this is about a bunch of mostly white people playing oppression dress up with no real societal or institutional stakes or risks. This is about people who are willing to boil down the privileges of being a cisgender heterosexual to whether or not they have sex or fall in love, as if either thing is persecuted when it’s felt by hetero-attracted people.
Miss me with this “I’m an inclusionist!!!” Nonsense.
You’re a cishet apologist with a self-created victim complex and zero understanding of the ramifications of real-world oppression.
good post op
You do realize that the LGBT acronym…keeps going, right?
Yeah I include anyone who experiences homophobia or transphobia so that could include someone two spirit or nonbinary or pansexual but I say LGBT because it’s concise and universally understood. So if you don’t experience homophobia or transphobia you are not LGBT.
It’s pretty straightforwards. It doesn’t matter if I say LGBT or LGBTPN because either way I’m only talking about people affected by homophobia or transphobia directly and personally which includes LGBT aces or Aros but not aroace people or cishet aces or Aros.
So you don’t think aro aces experience discrimination because what– you can’t spot them from a distance? I thought I was aro ace before I learned the difference between romantic and sexual attraction, and I KNOW the cruelty I experienced wasn’t singular. You’re limiting your definition of harassment to homophobia or transphobia, so I guess that explains your inability to see this, but you’re missing out on the fact that eschewing relationships in general makes you a target.
That ISN’T what was said. What I SAID was, “the people included when I use LGBT or in the overall LGBT umbrella all experience homophobia or transphobia or BOTH.”
You’re arguing whether or not aroaces experience discrimination. I’m arguing that the LGBT umbrella is defined by people who experience homophobia OR transphobia, and that including any kind of cishet regardless of their relationship towards sex or romance is damaging to LGBT people and allows a class of our oppressor into our spaces as something other than “ally.”
So to recap quickly:
1.) Discrimination does not equal oppression necessarily. So yes, aroace people can probably be discriminated against, but you’re hardly oppressed by society on a systemic level for not having sex or being interested in romance.
2.) Even if this was oppression somehow, it still wouldn’t make someone cis and het or cis and aroace “LGBT” because that coalition is built by and for people who experience homophobia and transphobia. If you experience neither, but still want a community – go forth and make it. But being LGBT isn’t a fun club for cishets to join as they please or feel like it. We’re not talking about an enjoyable party cishets weren’t invited to, we’re talking about a group of people oppressed by homophobia or transphobia working together. Generic discrimination doesn’t make people LGBT.
3.) I am not limiting my definition of harassment. I am defining the fact that the LGBT community is oppressed by two factors which overlap historically and in reality. The fact that cishet people are not harassed in THIS SPECIFIC WAY doesn’t mean they can’t be harassed, it means they’re not LGBT.
Cishet people playing dress up by acting as if they are persecuted by homophobia is both offensive and morally reprehensible. It’s “slumming it” with oppression and leaving when you feel like it. It also misdirects real serious issues of oppression by parsing them out into something that really isn’t quantifiable and has no consistent history.
If we framed this: “The patriarchy and rampant misogyny push all people into sexual roles they feel uncomfortable with, and targets anyone who does not behave accordingly,” then we could have a real, in depth, and sourced discussion. We could talk about why women in particular are punished for eschewing relationships or for being uninterested in sex, but we could also talk about how hyper machoism does the same to men, and how that marginalizes trans and nb people.
We could even have vast and deeply complex discussions about how colonialism and imperialism brutalized people into the gender binary, sexualized or desexualized certain bodies, and has attacked and weakened natural human bonding – to the point where we feel pressure to present our sexual nature in very specific and narrow ways. We could talk about the commodification of sex and sexual behavior. We could criticize Girls Gone Wild and both the Sex negative and Sex Positive movements. We could EVEN talk about why y’all apologists are always so eager to assume that ALL LGBT people have or want to have sex or are always sexual or in turn always interested in romance – but INSTEAD of doing ANY OF THAT and having deep and meaningful discussions about humanity and sex and gender and sexuality —
— we’re all stuck here at 101 reminding people “to be LGBT you either experience homophobia or transphobia.” So we never really move on to address any of the other issues and are stuck here, forever reiterating the most basic concept to people.
Best post OP
Amazing post OP
Articulated to the letter. Fantastic post OP
Published
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